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 Dusseldorf Altbier

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Tyler

Tyler


Posts : 95

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyThu Nov 10, 2011 11:12 am

permo wrote:
Now, what to do for a maibock...? I have found so many different recipes....most are pilsen and munich based but I found one commercial brewer who uses %100 marris otter in a maibock with great results....very odd....made me think a bock strength lager out of %100 golden promise with this yeast and lagered for a very long time.....

Just do the simple thing: grab some grain and chew on it.

Taste Pilsner vs. Maris Otter vs. Golden Promise vs. Belgian Pale Ale (from Dingeman's - I was really impressed by its flavor: more wheat toast then MO's cracker and/or dry white toast; more "warm" than MO's "dry" without being too sweet). Think about the differences and decide where you'd like your maibock to land in relation to the commercial Pilsner+Munich and the 100 MO version.
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dkwandt

dkwandt


Posts : 565

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyThu Nov 10, 2011 9:16 am

send me your email, i will send you my brew sheet and recipe.
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permo

permo


Posts : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyWed Nov 09, 2011 9:44 pm

dkwandt wrote:
i try to keep it at 56 for that yeast


Good deal, I was right on point with it then. I was really amazed at the results at 57. I suppose the cool pitching was very key, as the propogation mostly took place below 57 and then the bulk of the maltose feasting was at 57. I think it was a recipe for success.

Now, what to do for a maibock...? I have found so many different recipes....most are pilsen and munich based but I found one commercial brewer who uses %100 marris otter in a maibock with great results....very odd....made me think a bock strength lager out of %100 golden promise with this yeast and lagered for a very long time.....
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dkwandt

dkwandt


Posts : 565

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyWed Nov 09, 2011 11:55 am

i try to keep it at 56 for that yeast
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permo

permo


Posts : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyWed Nov 09, 2011 11:44 am

dkwandt wrote:
forgot to mention, i agree with you on that yeast. i like to use it as well.

I would say the bulk of the fermentation for this specific lager took place at about 57 degrees, while the pitching temp was around 50. My initial thoughts are that this yeast does pretty well and is quite clean on the upper end of the lager yeast spectrum. Wyeast says 58 is the high range, and I think I can vouch for that. I will push it colder next time and see what happens.
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dkwandt

dkwandt


Posts : 565

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyTue Nov 08, 2011 10:12 am

forgot to mention, i agree with you on that yeast. i like to use it as well.
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permo

permo


Posts : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyTue Nov 08, 2011 10:08 am

dkwandt wrote:
well good luck with that. my only sugestion would be the use everclear and a large resevoir for your bubler then! Laughing

Yeah, there are too many things that could go wrong, but it would be a very stable way to lager, deep inside a nd snowbank. Just set the carboys on the lawn next to the driveway and start snowblowing! LOL
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dkwandt

dkwandt


Posts : 565

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyTue Nov 08, 2011 9:57 am

well good luck with that. my only sugestion would be the use everclear and a large resevoir for your bubler then! Laughing
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permo

permo


Posts : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyTue Nov 08, 2011 9:53 am

dkwandt wrote:
it is not cheating at all! i like to still use the carboys but mostly to be sure there is not a wild yeast trying to cause problems, i can visually see the beer clear. i use the keg for secondary as well, i do like to filter to another keg prior to serving (just piece of mind i guess because i didn't see the beer develope) but i see no worries using a keg for secondary. i have a lager going right now, wednesday or thursday i will bring it up to 65. i will transfer it to carboys i just love watching how clear this beer gets (checked gravity yesterday it is right on track, with great flavor).


I have a %100 vienna malt and liberty hopped Lager that has been at 55 for 3 weeks , OG = 1.048 , FG = 1.010 with the wyeast octoberfest yeast from April that Jeff had at the shop. I tasted my sample and no diacytel whatsover, very impressed with this yeast. So much so that a 1.070 maibockish type of lager is headed for that yeast cake, as this ale was mainly to propogate yeast.

I like to see my brews in secondary as well........part of me wants to take two 5 gallon carboys full of lager wrap them somehow to protect them and burry them deep inside a snowbank in my backyard in January and wait for the snow to melt in the spring.
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dkwandt

dkwandt


Posts : 565

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyTue Nov 08, 2011 8:26 am

it is not cheating at all! i like to still use the carboys but mostly to be sure there is not a wild yeast trying to cause problems, i can visually see the beer clear. i use the keg for secondary as well, i do like to filter to another keg prior to serving (just piece of mind i guess because i didn't see the beer develope) but i see no worries using a keg for secondary. i have a lager going right now, wednesday or thursday i will bring it up to 65. i will transfer it to carboys i just love watching how clear this beer gets (checked gravity yesterday it is right on track, with great flavor).

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permo

permo


Posts : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyTue Nov 08, 2011 8:08 am

dkwandt wrote:
i raise it to 65 ussually about 1 to 2 days before i transfer to secondary, really should take care of any diacytal. i would worry if you give it at least 24 hours at 65 degrees.

May I ask what type of vessel you use for secondary? I have 5 glass carboys sitting around but I have migrated to just doing my long term aging in kegs. I still have this feeling in the back of my mind like this is cheating.
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dkwandt

dkwandt


Posts : 565

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyMon Nov 07, 2011 2:49 pm

i raise it to 65 ussually about 1 to 2 days before i transfer to secondary, really should take care of any diacytal. i would worry (correction would not worry) if you give it at least 24 hours at 65 degrees.


Last edited by dkwandt on Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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permo

permo


Posts : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyMon Nov 07, 2011 12:48 pm

dkwandt wrote:
just curios because to me i would be a stressor on the yeast, and with stress comes other esters. i like your answer a lot though! that great part of home brewing is experimentation. Love your Spirit, thought you might have had some profound reason i could learn from, but this one is a better answer.

I will report back, i have this beer fermenting right next to a vienna lager, and WY1007 has that slow, churning, cloudy, not going to flocculate, chararcteristic of lager yeast at this temp. It's been 11 days or so and I still have krausen and yeast very much in suspension.

I never really thought of too cold as a stressor, but you are correct. I also have to worry about diacytel at this temp i am assuming. Actually now might be the time to raise it up to 65 for a d-rest and to finish up.
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dkwandt

dkwandt


Posts : 565

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyFri Nov 04, 2011 11:46 am

just curios because to me i would be a stressor on the yeast, and with stress comes other esters. i like your answer a lot though! that great part of home brewing is experimentation. Love your Spirit, thought you might have had some profound reason i could learn from, but this one is a better answer.
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permo

permo


Posts : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyFri Nov 04, 2011 11:23 am

dkwandt wrote:
why would you want to use a lower temp?


Just to see what difference it makes in the final product. I would assume less yeast/fermentation derrived esthers for one thing (this could be good or bad) .....only one way to find out.
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dkwandt

dkwandt


Posts : 565

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyFri Nov 04, 2011 9:50 am

why would you want to use a lower temp?
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permo

permo


Posts : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyFri Nov 04, 2011 7:40 am

I have about 11 gallons of this still fermenting away at 58 degrees or so in a 15 gallon glass demijon, I must say that the krausen on this brew is just nuts. It is at least 4 inches high if not higher. This is day six of the fermentation and the yeast is still chugging away. This yeast appears to really thrive on the low end of the temperature range for ale yeast. Next time I may push it to 55 degrees....
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permo

permo


Posts : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyMon Oct 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Kick ass cheers

Tyler wrote:
permo wrote:

I want your witbier recipe from Octoberfest sometime....that was tasty!

Ask and you shall receive:


–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

11 gallons of liquid to the fermentor(s):

Efficiency 75%-ish
OG 1.051
FG 1.009

9 lbs Belgian Pilsner
9 lbs Wheat Malt
2 lbs Flaked Oats
1 lb Munich 10º
1 lb Rice Hulls

Mash at 154ºF

0.75 oz Magnum hops at 12.5%AA for 90 mins

3 oranges worth of fresh orange zest at flameout

10 minute hot whirlpool

Ferment 11 gallons with two fresh smack-packs of Wyeast 3944 Belgian Wit starting at 67ºF, holding for two days, gradually increasing to 75º over the next few days after. If the packs aren't really fresh, I'd make a small starter for each.

Half a vanilla bean for every 5 gallons, split, gutted, and soaked in vodka for a few days. I put the vanilla bean and vodka right into the keg since it was going to be served straight out of the keg and drained fairly quickly. If it won't be drank that quickly might be worth removing the actual vanilla bean from the fermentor after a week to make sure there isn't too much bad stuff (tannins? proteins?) extracted from the actual skin of the vanilla bean.

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––


If you end up brewing something along those lines, let me know. I'm always curious how my recipes and/or processes translate to other people's breweries. I'm fairly sure that everything I do is absolute luck so don't be too terribly upset if it doesn't turn out to taste the same as the one I brewed, I doubt I could replicate it. I did take pretty decent notes on this one, though, so at least you have a good picture of what I did and you could probably translate it to your brewing procedure.

Good luck!
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Tyler

Tyler


Posts : 95

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyMon Oct 31, 2011 10:01 am

permo wrote:

I want your witbier recipe from Octoberfest sometime....that was tasty!

Ask and you shall receive:


–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

11 gallons of liquid to the fermentor(s):

Efficiency 75%-ish
OG 1.051
FG 1.009

9 lbs Belgian Pilsner
9 lbs Wheat Malt
2 lbs Flaked Oats
1 lb Munich 10º
1 lb Rice Hulls

Mash at 154ºF

0.75 oz Magnum hops at 12.5%AA for 90 mins

3 oranges worth of fresh orange zest at flameout

10 minute hot whirlpool

Ferment 11 gallons with two fresh smack-packs of Wyeast 3944 Belgian Wit starting at 67ºF, holding for two days, gradually increasing to 75º over the next few days after. If the packs aren't really fresh, I'd make a small starter for each.

Half a vanilla bean for every 5 gallons, split, gutted, and soaked in vodka for a few days. I put the vanilla bean and vodka right into the keg since it was going to be served straight out of the keg and drained fairly quickly. If it won't be drank that quickly might be worth removing the actual vanilla bean from the fermentor after a week to make sure there isn't too much bad stuff (tannins? proteins?) extracted from the actual skin of the vanilla bean.

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––


If you end up brewing something along those lines, let me know. I'm always curious how my recipes and/or processes translate to other people's breweries. I'm fairly sure that everything I do is absolute luck so don't be too terribly upset if it doesn't turn out to taste the same as the one I brewed, I doubt I could replicate it. I did take pretty decent notes on this one, though, so at least you have a good picture of what I did and you could probably translate it to your brewing procedure.

Good luck!
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permo

permo


Posts : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyMon Oct 31, 2011 9:26 am

Tyler wrote:
permo wrote:

I must say that it is a beautiful dark amber/copper color. I just want to take a big straw and drink it right out of the fermenter.

I don't see any downside to this. There is no chance of infection or accidentally swallowing a big yeast ball.

...do it.
Twisted Evil

That is how take all of my tasting samples.....large unsanitized straw inserted into fermenter.......

I want your witbier recipe from Octoberfest sometime....that was tasty!
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Tyler

Tyler


Posts : 95

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyMon Oct 31, 2011 9:12 am

permo wrote:

I must say that it is a beautiful dark amber/copper color. I just want to take a big straw and drink it right out of the fermenter.

I don't see any downside to this. There is no chance of infection or accidentally swallowing a big yeast ball.

...do it.
Twisted Evil
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permo

permo


Posts : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyMon Oct 31, 2011 7:34 am

I pitched the 1007 at 60 degrees , the OG was 1.056 (a little high for style) and everything went well. This morning at 57 degrees the fermentation was full blown, so lag time was not an issue. I have experienced problems with WLP029 below 60 degrees but this yeast (1007) seems to be a bit more tolerant. Due to the cold pitching and fermentation schedule I was following I aerated more than usual and also pitched a starter that is larger than I typically would (4.5 liters for this batch). I think that helped.

I plan on letting the fermentation roll at this temp until I reach roughly %80 attenuation. I will then raise the temp to 65 degrees for the following week to all the beer to finish. I will then lower it down to lager temps to crash the yeast for a week or two and then keg. At that point I will decided if further finings are necassary to facilitate the clearing of the beer.

I must say that it is a beautiful dark amber/copper color. I just want to take a big straw and drink it right out of the fermenter.
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dkwandt

dkwandt


Posts : 565

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyFri Oct 28, 2011 9:20 pm

jeff has cara munic. i know it for sure.

common yeast would work too. but 007 should be ok.
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Mike Philleo

Mike Philleo


Posts : 396

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyFri Oct 28, 2011 9:24 am

Tyler wrote:
I be curious if the California Common yeast would do better at that low of a temperature and/or have an acceptably clean flavor...hmmm...

I'd like to try to create a North Dakota Common. German ingredients, a little higher gravity ('cause it's colder than hell up here), with a Cal. Common yeast. Unfortunately, I don't have a good method for cold temp. regulation so I'm holding out until I can control temps better before I start throwing Common yeast at gallons and gallons of beer.
That sounds awesome, man. I'd like to see an interpretation of that brought to life. No worries on the cold temp situation - if nothing else, I'm sure Randi and I can find you some room in our lagerator, should you prefer not to use the club's.
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Tyler

Tyler


Posts : 95

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyThu Oct 27, 2011 3:20 pm

I be curious if the California Common yeast would do better at that low of a temperature and/or have an acceptably clean flavor...hmmm...

I'd like to try to create a North Dakota Common. German ingredients, a little higher gravity ('cause it's colder than hell up here), with a Cal. Common yeast. Unfortunately, I don't have a good method for cold temp. regulation so I'm holding out until I can control temps better before I start throwing Common yeast at gallons and gallons of beer.

I think the 1007 should be fine at 58º-ish and Wyeast says it'll be just fine down there. More than anything, I wanted to make sure you knew you needed to be aware of that yeast's activity at that temp. It's not too terribly flocculant (it took a couple weeks for an American-style wheat beer I brewed to clear out) so, if fermentation does stop, you could probably just give the fermentor a swirl and raise the temp and it'll finish fermenting just fine.

Let me know how it turns out. I love the altbier style but I'm a bit hesitant to brew one because of my (lack of) temp-control situation.
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permo

permo


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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyThu Oct 27, 2011 1:14 pm

Tyler wrote:
That looks like an alt to me. If you can find it, CaraMunich would be more "appropriate" (it's German, ya!) but it's basically Crystal 60 from a different grain if I remember correctly. It'll be fine either way, I'm sure.

The only thing I'd be concerned with is the 1007 at such a low temp. I've never used it that low but I've used it a bit higher, 64º-ish (with a healthy decanted starter) if I remember correctly, and gotten fairly low ester production from it. Wyeast says it should be fine that low but I wouldn't be afraid of any negative flavor contributions from bringing the temp up if it starts to slow down early.

Good luck!

I would have preferred caramunic as well, but in Bismarck our selection is a little limited! I have had issues with WLP029 (alt kolsch) yeast below 60 before and I am also concerned about 1007 below 60 as well. I know I am going to have to keep a close eye on the yeast to ensure things keep moving along. After I reach about %80 attenuation I will essentially give it a D rest at 65 or so for another week at least to finish out. Then I will chill it back down to crash yeast , keg and lager for a month or two........if I can be that patient!
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Tyler

Tyler


Posts : 95

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PostSubject: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyThu Oct 27, 2011 9:18 am

That looks like an alt to me. If you can find it, CaraMunich would be more "appropriate" (it's German, ya!) but it's basically Crystal 60 from a different grain if I remember correctly. It'll be fine either way, I'm sure.

The only thing I'd be concerned with is the 1007 at such a low temp. I've never used it that low but I've used it a bit higher, 64º-ish (with a healthy decanted starter) if I remember correctly, and gotten fairly low ester production from it. Wyeast says it should be fine that low but I wouldn't be afraid of any negative flavor contributions from bringing the temp up if it starts to slow down early.

Good luck!
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permo

permo


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PostSubject: Dusseldorf Altbier   Dusseldorf Altbier EmptyWed Oct 26, 2011 7:34 am

For your consideration, my first altbier. I mash a little higher than normal to fend off over attenuation. I tend to pitch a pile of healthy yeast and my beers finish notoriously dry.

12 gallon Batch (10 gallon yield)
13# bohemian pilsener
4# Vienna malt
4# Dark munich malt
1.5 # C60
6 oz chocolate malt
1 oz liberty at 90
1 oz hallertauer at 90
1 oz liberty at 60
1 oz hallertauer at 60
1 oz liberty at 30
1 oz hallertauer at 30
Mash at 154
WY1007 at 58 degrees
OG = 1.052
FG = 1.014
IBU = 36..ish
SRM = 14ish

I have never fermented with 1007 before and heard some horror stories about stubborn flocculation, so far in my 1gallon starter I have not seen an issue. I just put it in the fridge to crash last night and the wort is clearning nicely.

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